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	<title>Comments on: The Prop 8 Case</title>
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	<link>http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/2009/05/the-prop-8-case/</link>
	<description>University of Akron School of Law Blog</description>
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		<title>By: mrasor</title>
		<link>http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/2009/05/the-prop-8-case/comment-page-1/#comment-1598</link>
		<dc:creator>mrasor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 03:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/?p=1782#comment-1598</guid>
		<description>Prof. Huhn,

Regarding prostitution, you are correct. The secondary effects are clearly enough to constitute a compelling cause for regulation. My point is, a fair argument can be made that an outright ban is not narrowly tailored -- that SOME prostitution does not offend the state&#039;s interests. You can force prostitutes to take a class explaining how they are entering an exploitative industry. You can require STD testing. If a state bans prostitution outright, rather than applying a more complex plan of regulation, it is unnecessarily burdening the right to bedroom privacy created in Griswold and Lawrence.

Of course, I am making these arguments to show how slippery the slope might be. I don&#039;t actually want to see prostitution legalized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof. Huhn,</p>
<p>Regarding prostitution, you are correct. The secondary effects are clearly enough to constitute a compelling cause for regulation. My point is, a fair argument can be made that an outright ban is not narrowly tailored &#8212; that SOME prostitution does not offend the state&#039;s interests. You can force prostitutes to take a class explaining how they are entering an exploitative industry. You can require STD testing. If a state bans prostitution outright, rather than applying a more complex plan of regulation, it is unnecessarily burdening the right to bedroom privacy created in Griswold and Lawrence.</p>
<p>Of course, I am making these arguments to show how slippery the slope might be. I don&#039;t actually want to see prostitution legalized.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/2009/05/the-prop-8-case/comment-page-1/#comment-1594</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 22:39:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/?p=1782#comment-1594</guid>
		<description>I was hoping that you would answer the polygamy case law question. 

Some of the rulings were screwball, but I am not sure where else you could find similar case law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was hoping that you would answer the polygamy case law question. </p>
<p>Some of the rulings were screwball, but I am not sure where else you could find similar case law.</p>
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		<title>By: Professor Will Huhn</title>
		<link>http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/2009/05/the-prop-8-case/comment-page-1/#comment-1586</link>
		<dc:creator>Professor Will Huhn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 13:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/?p=1782#comment-1586</guid>
		<description>Quidpro,
     I had not heard that Boies and Olson were thinking of challenging this decision in the federal courts.  In any even I can&#039;t think of any federal grounds for appeal.  This decision was wholly a matter of the interpretation of California law - whether Prop 8 was an &quot;amendment&quot; or a &quot;revision&quot; under the California Constitution and whether Prop 8 should be amended retroactively or only prospectively.  There is no &quot;federal question&quot; for the federal courts to decide.
Dave,
     I don&#039;t think that leaving the 18,000 marriages intact violates the rights of other gays and lesbians who wish to marry.  You would have to argue that it violates the U.S. Constitution to amend a state constitution prospectively.  If it were the reverse - if gay marriage were legal but a group of people were barred from this privilege - then there would be a significant problem under Equal Protection.  But if gay marriage in itself is not a fundamental right I don&#039;t think that the Supreme Court would find the differential treatment introduced by Prop 8 to be &quot;arbitrary and capricious.&quot;
Grk Goddess,
     I agree completely.  This is why I think that the arguments that if gay marriage is recognized people will marry to obtain health care or social security benefits is without merit.  Heterosexual couples could do that now, but the legal implications of marriage are so farreaching - the sharing of property and sometimes rights to custody or visitation of children - that few people enter into such marriages of convenience.  Divorce is hell.
Mrasor,
     I agree with you as well.  I think that the key portion of the ruling in Lawrence is that morality, in and of itself, is not sufficient to prevent people from entering into loving relationships.  If the government wants to control sexuality it must do so for some reason other than religious doctrine or moral teaching.  It must point to some concrete, distinct harm that results from the behavior.  Most of us would agree that prostitution is unlawful not simply because we view it as wrong but because it causes harm.  We ban prostitution to prevent the exploitation of girls and women and to limit the transmission of sexual diseases.  If at some future date there emerges substantial credible social science evidence that prostitution is not harmful then under the reasoning of Lawrence the laws against prostitution could be declared unconstitutional, but in light of the pathetic state of most prostitutes I doubt that such evidence will be forthcoming.
Rayy,
     In the normal case, you are right, civil rights should not be up for a vote.  When the legislature enacts a statute or the people of a state adopt a statute by way of referendum these laws are subject to examination under both the state and federal constitution.  But Prop 8 was not simply a statute, it was an amendment to the State Constitution itself.  As such, it overrules any contrary interpretation of the State Constitution by the California Supreme Court.  Prop 8 may be in violation of the federal constitution if we find that same-sex marriage is a fundamental right, but there is nothing unconstitutional about the people of a state amending their own constitution by a majority vote.  It may not be wise to allow amendment of the state constitution by majority vote, but this procedure in and of itself does not interfere with any rights under the Due Process Clause, the First Amendment, or Equal Protection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quidpro,<br />
     I had not heard that Boies and Olson were thinking of challenging this decision in the federal courts.  In any even I can&#039;t think of any federal grounds for appeal.  This decision was wholly a matter of the interpretation of California law &#8211; whether Prop 8 was an &#034;amendment&#034; or a &#034;revision&#034; under the California Constitution and whether Prop 8 should be amended retroactively or only prospectively.  There is no &#034;federal question&#034; for the federal courts to decide.<br />
Dave,<br />
     I don&#039;t think that leaving the 18,000 marriages intact violates the rights of other gays and lesbians who wish to marry.  You would have to argue that it violates the U.S. Constitution to amend a state constitution prospectively.  If it were the reverse &#8211; if gay marriage were legal but a group of people were barred from this privilege &#8211; then there would be a significant problem under Equal Protection.  But if gay marriage in itself is not a fundamental right I don&#039;t think that the Supreme Court would find the differential treatment introduced by Prop 8 to be &#034;arbitrary and capricious.&#034;<br />
Grk Goddess,<br />
     I agree completely.  This is why I think that the arguments that if gay marriage is recognized people will marry to obtain health care or social security benefits is without merit.  Heterosexual couples could do that now, but the legal implications of marriage are so farreaching &#8211; the sharing of property and sometimes rights to custody or visitation of children &#8211; that few people enter into such marriages of convenience.  Divorce is hell.<br />
Mrasor,<br />
     I agree with you as well.  I think that the key portion of the ruling in Lawrence is that morality, in and of itself, is not sufficient to prevent people from entering into loving relationships.  If the government wants to control sexuality it must do so for some reason other than religious doctrine or moral teaching.  It must point to some concrete, distinct harm that results from the behavior.  Most of us would agree that prostitution is unlawful not simply because we view it as wrong but because it causes harm.  We ban prostitution to prevent the exploitation of girls and women and to limit the transmission of sexual diseases.  If at some future date there emerges substantial credible social science evidence that prostitution is not harmful then under the reasoning of Lawrence the laws against prostitution could be declared unconstitutional, but in light of the pathetic state of most prostitutes I doubt that such evidence will be forthcoming.<br />
Rayy,<br />
     In the normal case, you are right, civil rights should not be up for a vote.  When the legislature enacts a statute or the people of a state adopt a statute by way of referendum these laws are subject to examination under both the state and federal constitution.  But Prop 8 was not simply a statute, it was an amendment to the State Constitution itself.  As such, it overrules any contrary interpretation of the State Constitution by the California Supreme Court.  Prop 8 may be in violation of the federal constitution if we find that same-sex marriage is a fundamental right, but there is nothing unconstitutional about the people of a state amending their own constitution by a majority vote.  It may not be wise to allow amendment of the state constitution by majority vote, but this procedure in and of itself does not interfere with any rights under the Due Process Clause, the First Amendment, or Equal Protection.</p>
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		<title>By: Quidpro</title>
		<link>http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/2009/05/the-prop-8-case/comment-page-1/#comment-1562</link>
		<dc:creator>Quidpro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 11:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/?p=1782#comment-1562</guid>
		<description>Rayy,

The right to marry has trsaditionally been accorded to individuals not couples.  My daughter and I, as a couple, do not, nor should we, have the right to marry each other.  But assuming that we meet certain minimum requirements (such as age, no existing marriage, etc) we are each free to marry another person of the opposite sex.  Traditionally marriage has been between one man and one woman.  Certainly the people should have the right to vote on whether that definitionshould be changed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rayy,</p>
<p>The right to marry has trsaditionally been accorded to individuals not couples.  My daughter and I, as a couple, do not, nor should we, have the right to marry each other.  But assuming that we meet certain minimum requirements (such as age, no existing marriage, etc) we are each free to marry another person of the opposite sex.  Traditionally marriage has been between one man and one woman.  Certainly the people should have the right to vote on whether that definitionshould be changed.</p>
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		<title>By: rayy</title>
		<link>http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/2009/05/the-prop-8-case/comment-page-1/#comment-1561</link>
		<dc:creator>rayy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 10:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/?p=1782#comment-1561</guid>
		<description>Should civil rights really be up for a vote?  What if someone challenged your right to marry the person of your choosing?  Would you think that was right?  There are approximately 1400 rights and privileges awarded by government to married persons.  How is it not discrimination that some couples are not allowed to marry?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Should civil rights really be up for a vote?  What if someone challenged your right to marry the person of your choosing?  Would you think that was right?  There are approximately 1400 rights and privileges awarded by government to married persons.  How is it not discrimination that some couples are not allowed to marry?</p>
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		<title>By: mrasor</title>
		<link>http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/2009/05/the-prop-8-case/comment-page-1/#comment-1559</link>
		<dc:creator>mrasor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 06:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/?p=1782#comment-1559</guid>
		<description>It would be interesting to see if the drafters of Prop 8 intentionally left the 18,000 marriages untouched to preempt any 14th/5th Amendment Due Process challenges. It&#039;s hard to believe such a well-organized team would have simply forgotten about them.

I think it&#039;s going to be a few decades before we&#039;ll see this at the Supreme Court. They won&#039;t have the votes until the base of four conservative justices is broken apart. On that day, I hope the Court remembers that the Due Process clause must not be used to destroy federalism, but rather to reign in the absurd outliers (i.e. Griswold v. Connecticut, Lawrence v. Texas, and Loving v. Virginia).

Lawrence v. Texas was decided correctly. The government has no business in preventing consenting homosexuals from doing what they want. The main problem is taking these outlier cases and extending them. It&#039;s not far-fetched to imagine an argument for creating a fundamental right of prostitution ... If people have the &quot;right of privacy&quot; to have sexual relations in their home, shouldn&#039;t consenting adults be permitted to make contracts for sex -- assuming it is not done in public and no one is harmed? If the &quot;fundamental right&quot; is privacy in the bedroom, then the anti-prostitution laws are not narrowly tailored to defeat the evils of destroying marriages, spreading disease, etc. Certainly, you can craft a law that allows prostitution for unmarried individuals if proper STD testing is conducted.

Poof. There go the anti-prostitution laws in 40-some states. That is the danger in extending holdings from these outlier laws to mainstream laws. That&#039;s how Griswold v. Connecticut (overruling an no-contraceptive law) ended anti-abortion laws. Our parents tell us not to do something just because everyone else is doing it, but the widespread implementation of such a law is quite probative of whether we are dealing with a &quot;fundamental right.&quot;

We need to separate what moral views we have from what we believe is the proper role of the judiciary in a democracy built on federalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be interesting to see if the drafters of Prop 8 intentionally left the 18,000 marriages untouched to preempt any 14th/5th Amendment Due Process challenges. It&#039;s hard to believe such a well-organized team would have simply forgotten about them.</p>
<p>I think it&#039;s going to be a few decades before we&#039;ll see this at the Supreme Court. They won&#039;t have the votes until the base of four conservative justices is broken apart. On that day, I hope the Court remembers that the Due Process clause must not be used to destroy federalism, but rather to reign in the absurd outliers (i.e. Griswold v. Connecticut, Lawrence v. Texas, and Loving v. Virginia).</p>
<p>Lawrence v. Texas was decided correctly. The government has no business in preventing consenting homosexuals from doing what they want. The main problem is taking these outlier cases and extending them. It&#039;s not far-fetched to imagine an argument for creating a fundamental right of prostitution &#8230; If people have the &#034;right of privacy&#034; to have sexual relations in their home, shouldn&#039;t consenting adults be permitted to make contracts for sex &#8212; assuming it is not done in public and no one is harmed? If the &#034;fundamental right&#034; is privacy in the bedroom, then the anti-prostitution laws are not narrowly tailored to defeat the evils of destroying marriages, spreading disease, etc. Certainly, you can craft a law that allows prostitution for unmarried individuals if proper STD testing is conducted.</p>
<p>Poof. There go the anti-prostitution laws in 40-some states. That is the danger in extending holdings from these outlier laws to mainstream laws. That&#039;s how Griswold v. Connecticut (overruling an no-contraceptive law) ended anti-abortion laws. Our parents tell us not to do something just because everyone else is doing it, but the widespread implementation of such a law is quite probative of whether we are dealing with a &#034;fundamental right.&#034;</p>
<p>We need to separate what moral views we have from what we believe is the proper role of the judiciary in a democracy built on federalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Grk Goddess</title>
		<link>http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/2009/05/the-prop-8-case/comment-page-1/#comment-1558</link>
		<dc:creator>Grk Goddess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 18:55:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/?p=1782#comment-1558</guid>
		<description>My opinion is not legally based BUT same sex couples should have the same rights as everyone else - period.   Let them be miserable like the rest of us married folk ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My opinion is not legally based BUT same sex couples should have the same rights as everyone else &#8211; period.   Let them be miserable like the rest of us married folk <img src='http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/2009/05/the-prop-8-case/comment-page-1/#comment-1556</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 15:28:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/?p=1782#comment-1556</guid>
		<description>Do we not run into some equal protection questions by leaving 18k same-sex marriages intact and then telling others they cannot marry? Obviously there will be more to come.

Does it make any sense to look at case law from polygamy cases for guidance?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do we not run into some equal protection questions by leaving 18k same-sex marriages intact and then telling others they cannot marry? Obviously there will be more to come.</p>
<p>Does it make any sense to look at case law from polygamy cases for guidance?</p>
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		<title>By: Quidpro</title>
		<link>http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/2009/05/the-prop-8-case/comment-page-1/#comment-1554</link>
		<dc:creator>Quidpro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 13:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/?p=1782#comment-1554</guid>
		<description>The court&#039;s decision was expected and legally correct.  The California Supreme Court overstepped its bounds when it judicially created same-sex marriage.  Proposition 8 merely reinstated the will of the people.  Yesterday&#039;s decision represents the restoration of democracy in California.  

Having decided that Proposition 8 only &quot;amended&quot; the state constitution, it necessarily followed that the law should be applied only prospectively.  To apply Proposition 8 retroactively might suggest that it constituted a &quot;revision&quot; to the constitution.

The battle may not be over yet.  Rumor has it that David Boies and Ted Olson (!!??) may challenge yesterdays decision in the federal courts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The court&#039;s decision was expected and legally correct.  The California Supreme Court overstepped its bounds when it judicially created same-sex marriage.  Proposition 8 merely reinstated the will of the people.  Yesterday&#039;s decision represents the restoration of democracy in California.  </p>
<p>Having decided that Proposition 8 only &#034;amended&#034; the state constitution, it necessarily followed that the law should be applied only prospectively.  To apply Proposition 8 retroactively might suggest that it constituted a &#034;revision&#034; to the constitution.</p>
<p>The battle may not be over yet.  Rumor has it that David Boies and Ted Olson (!!??) may challenge yesterdays decision in the federal courts.</p>
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