Well, I got involved in a little brou-ha-ha over on Bob Dyer's column, and I thought I would bring it up over here. The issue is that the sports teams for Akron's East High School have traditionally been called "the Orientals." Born and raised in California, I have always considered that term somewhat offensive, so when Dyer originally posted a short item about this in one of his columns, I emailed him an extensive response. Here's the original item:
Time for changeHow long is Akron's East High School going to insist on keeping that absurd nickname for its sports teams?
In 2010, it's unconscionable that we're still saddled with ''the East High Orientals.''
Tradition is nice, but it doesn't trump good taste. Can you imagine the existence of a team called the West High Negroes?
The term ''Oriental,'' when referring to a person, is every bit as offensive to most Americans of Asian heritage.
His follow-up published today devotes an entire article to this topic, and quotes me extensively.
What do you think?
{ 19 comments }
And while we're at it:
http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/2009/02/does-chief-wahoo-deserve-an-antitrust-exemption/
I found Bob's article fascinating and provocative. I guess, to play devil's advocate, I'd have to ask exactly why some people are claiming the term "Oriental" is offensive? It designates a person who hails from the Orient. It is a legitimate designation and is not a slur in any way, shape or form. Texans hail from Texas. Americans hail from the Americas – north, central or south. Africans hail from Africa. Europeans hail from Europe. If the moniker were degrading – Bob Dyer used the illustration of "Chinks," well, that would be entirely different. But this is not the case. I believe East High's principal asked the Asian students (anonymously, I'm sure) if they were offended. The answer came back as no. Bob Dyer dismisses this fact so he can continue on with his story. Is the St.V/M Fighting Irish offensive? Should we poll the students of Irish descent? How about the College of Wooster Fighting Scots? Shall we poll the students of Scotch descent? The College of Wooster marching band even wears kilts! Wow, how stereotypical, racist, denigrating and offensive! No? Hmm, perhaps we should simply stop being so overly sensitive?
Just playing Devil's Advocate. I don't care what they call the school extra-curricular teams. Also, I do like Bob Dyer's suggestion of East High Dragons.
I hate these "this is just like" / analogy arguments. The Scots, the Yankees, the Irish – those aren't offensive terms. And even if Fightin' Irish was originally intended to be derogatory – which it wasn't – it's culturally accepted by and taken as a thing of pride by Irish people. Same thing with the Scots up in Wooster.
Oriental is not a term of endearment for Asian people. It's not a term of endearment to the general population. It's just plain derogatory.
Derogatory? Take 5 seconds and go to dictionary.com. Type in oriental. You'll be amazed at how widely used the term is. All in non-offensive ways. That's because it's simply a legitimate word signifying people who come from the Asian and Malaysian regions. Nothing derogatory about the term at all. If it is derogatory term, then a lot of businesses besides just East High School are going to have to change their names or the names of the products they sell too.
And while we're at it, please don't refer to me as "white"! I am neither an albino nor a snowman.
And while we're at it, whatever happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words/names will/can never hurt me"? Are we so uncomfortable with our unchosen heritages that we really give a darn what someone else calls us?
And while we're at it, a change to Dragons with the accompanying trademarked graphics would open up limitless opportunities for fundraising and licensing. Do it!
And finally, while we're at it, the Chief Wahoo thread from over a year ago has generated no changes at that franchise. Talk is cheap, if you really want changes you need to sue the bas*****! Know any good lawyers???
@ Dan S.
I can't believe you actually had the nerve to used the term albino! How offensive! Albino is a derogatory moniker. Welcome to 2010, Dan. The correct term is now "pigment-challenged", thank you very much.
You're clearly a pigment-challenged-phobe.
Similar viewpoint on same topic — http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/09/15/go-orientials-go/. (I don't understand the Gaucho problem, BTW.)
Apparently, the Orientals moniker is in use in Rochester as well — http://www.alumniclass.com/EastSeniorhighschool/store/apparel-high-school-rochester-ny.
I never thought of the nickname as offensive but, unlike Prof. Lee, I grew up hearing it from the time I was small. Like some others who have commented, I always thought of an Oriental as the flip side of Occidental. Clearly, that impression is not universal.
Other Ohio high school nicknames — Quakers, Redskins, Red Devils, Black Knights, Greenmen, Redmen, Blue Devils, Demons, Rebels, Nubians, Punchers, Pointers, Railroaders, Tarblooders, Ambassadors, Indians, Senecas, Chieftains, Seminoles, Mohawks, Stockaders, Truckers, Bombers, G-Men (with the girls' teams going by, not kidding, Lady G-Men), Marauders, Dukes and, perhaps worst of all, Lawyers. There's even a Jeeps (TM infringement action, anyone?).
Following on the East theme, Cleveland East Tech goes by Golden Scarabs.
I wonder whether Orientals was deemed less offensive than Arabs at the time of the last change.
I agree that the word is not inherently pejorative. (Although Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, Little Oxford and MSN Encarta dictionaries all indicate that usage is now offensive at least sometimes.) I still think the example of "Negro" captures the problem best. Similarly not inherently derogatory (witness the United Negro College Fund), but extremely dated. Using that word in ordinary language makes the speaker seem really out of touch. When I hear "Oriental" used by individuals, it's not a very big deal, especially if they are older. If they seem educable I try to share with them how the word makes me feel, just so they are aware and don't offend people by mistake. To me, the word connotes a time when Asians were stereotyped as inscrutable, exotic, and inherently foreign.
But this is not an individual. By using it as the nickname of government institution, a public school, we are making our whole community seem backward. Words can mean really different things to different people; I don't know how I can convey to you how obvious and clear this issue is to many people in this country for whom "Oriental" is unquestionably offensive. If we want to recruit good employees and companies to come to Akron, this will scare them away.
Rob: Did you actually do that 5-second search? This is from dictionary.com: "as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in the first Oriental to be elected from the district) it is now widely taken to be offensive." It was in a usage note, toward the bottom of the page.
RE:"If we want to recruit good employees and companies to come to Akron, this will scare them away."
And in spite of this (^) you relocated to Akron? Didn't you really come here because there was a good job opportunity here for you? Do you really think that Bridgestone considered the mascot of East High School when it chose to continue operations in Akron? Do you really think any of the world-class scientists from the far eastern continent of Asia considered that mascot when they chose to teach and conduct ground breaking research at The University of Akron? While I honestly believe the sincerity of your opinions, I'm going out on a limb and guess that Akron loses more potential employees due to our weather conditions than it does to the name of a school mascot.
And while I'm ranting today, please do me a favor. Tell me specifically at what point in time it became generally offensive to use the term 'oriental'? While you're at it maybe you could also provide a timeline for the transition from colored->negro->black->etc. And since this seems to be a never ending problem, will you be kind enough to tell me what the next iteration of acceptable descriptive terms will be for both your racial group and the one that traces back to sub-Saharan Africa? I want to start practicing now so I wont offend anyone next year.
@Rob: Blame it on Dan Brown!
Dan S.: As to your first point, I agree somewhat–I'm only talking about this making a difference at the margins. If someone has no other job options, this won't keep them from coming here. But if they have choices and are wavering, I think this could definitely put them over the edge.
As to your second point–yes, it is a never-ending problem to try to understand other people well enough not to inadvertently offend them. And people being people, they change, and you'll never get it exactly right. I still think it's worth trying. And on the other hand, we all have to try not to get too easily offended. I think I've been doing pretty well on that score for the last 12 years.
I am currently a law student here in Akron. I moved here from San Diego, CA for Undergrad because I had family here and I liked the University of Akron's Engineering Co-op program. This is the first time I've ever commented on a blog, but I thought I might have something to offer the discussion because I am a young Asian-American woman.
I can honestly say that in my experience Akron has a long way to go to becoming more informed about and considerate of other cultures. I was born and raised in America. I served in the U.S. military, including a tour in Iraq. Growing up in San Diego, where there are an abundance of Asian-Americans, I didn't even consider myself Asian – I just thought of myself as another American person. If I identified myself with any minority it would be as a woman. I identified with my Caucasian and African-American friends just as much as my Asian friends. It wasn't until I came to Ohio that I came to be acutely aware of my 'Asianness' as separate from other Americans. This awareness developed over time as a result of many experiences here in Akron;
-I've had little children pointing at me and staring at me at Kroger's grocery store and calling me "Chinese."
-I was talking to the receptionist at a doctor's office. We were chatting away very cordially and then she looked at me in surprise and said "you must be American. Where did you learn to speak English so well?"
-I've even been called a "f****** chink" by a woman was angry because I honked my horn to let her know she was backing into my car in the Fairlawn Giant Eagle parking lot.
These are just a few of the experiences that have colored my experience in Akron as an Asian-American. And yes, I've been called "Oriental." And yes, I found it offensive because, as Professor Lee pointed out, "Oriental" is an adjective to describe a thing and I am not a thing, I am a person. It is a very outdated term when used in reference to a person.
I found it surprising that the Asian students at East High School did not find it offensive. But after thinking about it, I thought that maybe those students learned to accept it in order to be and/or feel a part of the school community. What were they supposed to do, be offended for four years as their friends and classmates are rallying and cheering for the school team? That would probably make them feel even more like outsiders. And we all know that teenagers, more than any other group, need to fit in and be accepted by their peers. The last thing you want to do when you are a teenager is stand out and be different. It wasn't until my college years that I even dared to think outside of my little circle and think about the world around me or care how the world worked beyond my immediate peer group.
Re: "…it's simply a legitimate word signifying people who come from the Asian and Malaysian regions. Nothing derogatory about the term at all."
Shouldn't the offensiveness of a word be determined by the people to whom the word refers to? It may not be intended to be offensive or derogatory, as is the case of a lot of people in Akron who use it simply because they do not understand that it offends. However, once one is informed that it is offensive to Asians, continuing to use it is disrespectful in my opinion.
Re: "Do you really think any of the world-class scientists from the far eastern continent of Asia considered that mascot when they chose to teach and conduct ground breaking research at The University of Akron?"
They probably didn't know about the mascot, but after being here a few years, experiencing cultural ignorance and insensitivity, they might not want to stay here. I know I would think twice about raising my children in a place where they will feel like an outsider no matter how much of a patriot they are.
I believe that allowing the team to be called "Orientals" perpetuates the incorrect and offensive usage of the word.
Carly,
Thank you for your well stated comments. Please visit the following site where you may begin to gain a better understanding of why Akronites are the way they are:
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ThematicMapFramesetServlet?_bm=y&-geo_id=01000US&-tm_name=ACS_2008_3YR_G00_M00630&-ds_name=ACS_2008_3YR_G00_&-_MapEvent=displayBy&-_dBy=040
As shown on that site, your home state has a population that is 12% pure Asian. My home state, Ohio, is 0.3-1.8% pure Asian. That fact alone makes members of "your" racial/ethnic group somewhat of a rarity to most people who grew up in Ohio. My 1967 Akron HS graduating class of 495 had, as I recall, no Asian members. While these numbers are no defense against rudeness or callousness, I hope they provide some insight into the actions of those you have encountered on 'not one of their better days'. Our physical characteristics are the first thing anyone notices when they encounter us in any setting, and they often influence our internal data processing and subsequent verbal output. For example, if an "African" or an "Arab" or even just another "Female" had honked in self-defense in that parking lot, I'm reasonably sure the response would have been very similar….with just a change of slur. Once again, that is not a defense, it is just an observation based on 45 years of interacting with people in parking lots.
That said, maybe something can be done to make your life more pleasant and Akron a better place to live and raise families. Perhaps you, Professor Lee, and Mr. Dyer could apply your collective talents to introduce a program that would stimulate more cultural awareness and understanding. The Akron Torchbearers could be one group that would probably embrace such an activity. Take it a step further and suggest that a transcript of this entire thread be incorporated into a lesson plan for use in the Akron Public School system. It has been mentioned that older people are often set in their beliefs and vocabularies. I believe that to be true for many my age and older. You have the opportunity to help change the 'habits' of many younger Akronites; the question is, will you do so?
I would like to know how many generations does a family have to live in this country before they consider themselves American? Carly – while you lived in California you considered yourself an American but after moving to Ohio were you are different than the majority of the population you were "acutely aware" and now call yourself an Asian American? You are singling yourself out but adding the label "Asian" rather than correct people and say "I'm an American".
We would have a lot less issues with racial division if people would stop identifying themselves with their country of origin. I am friends with a man who is from South Africa. He became a citizen not too long ago, but because he is a Caucasian he can not claim that he is an "African American" because the color of his skin is wrong. Even though he was born and raised on the African Continent.
To close and to quote Professor Lee and yourself ", "Oriental" is an adjective to describe a thing", the thing in this case is a school mascot.
Is it just me, or is there a more obvious meaning behind the nickname that isn't being discussed? It's EAST High (as is the high school in Rochester with the same name), so "Orientals" denotes "people from the East" — i.e., the students who attend and compete for East High — rather than "Asians." Everyone seems to be assuming that the intended meaning is, in effect, "Asians," when the likely intended meaning was otherwise.
@Laura B.: I would love to be able to just think of myself as American. It's only after generations of having been presumed NOT to be American (and also presumed to be all the same) that Asians stated calling themselves Asian American to begin with. After five generations, I still get asked where I'm from. If other people are going to distinguish me by my race, I'm going to find some pride in it. That's what identity is all about.
@BNapier: Totally agree that "Orientals" is about it being East high school. That's why North is the Vikings. (And I think South was the Cavaliers? Was West the Cowboys?) But that doesn't change the meaning of the word to not refer to Asians. If my school nickname was "the Negroes" because our school color was black, the word "negro" would still mean what it means–African American.
Professor Brant Lee March 31, 2010 at 2:13 am: "I agree that the word is not inherently pejorative. (Although Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, Little Oxford and MSN Encarta dictionaries all indicate that usage is now offensive at least sometimes.) I still think the example of "Negro" captures the problem best."
What poppycock! Or should I type this last word as poppycoch?
Orient. Orientals.
No different that those in the Pacific rim and points west referring to us as Westerners.
Anyone sit through classes at a university lately entitled "Eastern Civilization"? Or "Western Culture"? Don't anybody DARE refer to me as a Westerner!!!
And to cut to the chase here, if Orientals is on a par with Negroes as a derogatory term, then where is this magical land which has commonly been referred to over the years as "The Negro"?
If Orientals "i.e. from the Orient" is offensive, then Negroes must surely be a people originating from a region commonly known for centuries as "the Negro".
Where is that stem cell research when we need it? Can we please just grow backbones and not be a civilization of spineless wimps who spend our lives attempting to garner self-worth by looking for opportunities to crush others whom have different viewpoints than ours? Just because some are insecure and want to "teach" others how to "properly think" is not sufficient reason for those others to cow-tow to what may well be nothing more than the juvenile rantings of a minority of people whose primary objective is to falsely position themselves as intellectually superior to others. Sad. Sad indeed.
Julio: I think whatever you're responding to, it's not me or what I've written. It's true, of course, that "Negro" is not in every way a perfect analogy for "Oriental." The comparison I was making was that both are now considered by a broad spectrum of people, including the editors of mainstream reference works, to be outmoded and at least somewhat offensive. I didn't see anything in what you wrote that responded to that point.
Fair enough PBL.
I disagree on your point in making a broad sweeping generalization that "… both are now considered by a broad spectrum of people, including the editors of mainstream reference works, to be outmoded and at least somewhat offensive."
On the official "Outmodedness" scale, the term Negroes is a 9 or a 10 by anyone's measurement.
On the other hand, the term Orientals falls in the range of 2 to 7, depending upon the background of the interpreting individual. We will not find nearly as many people in mainstream society, editors or otherwise, who assign the same valuation of outmodedness to the term Orientals as they do Negroes.
It certainly won't be long before the term "Asian" appears in the lower range. As will the appearance of the term "American" be soon added.
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